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So Long and Farewell

I used to love Foundation. It made all the things (well, most of them) nice and easy with a relative minimum of class name overhead. My designers would have their way with things and I never worried about whether or not those things would be troublesome. I knew I could fill in the few places Foundation wouldn't go.

I've been trying to love F6, I really have. We've now done 4 projects with it, and the only one that didn't show how full of bugs F6 is was the one where the flex grid, buttons, and alerts were literally the only components we used.

I was excited about the blog posts leading up to the release. I liked the idea of the "full load" being half the size of F5 and twice as fast.

Now it's been 2 months and we're on v6.1.2 (a full point-release away from the initial release). The documentation is still full of errors. The framework components are still full of bugs. We can't use Reveal because half the time it appears off screen (or near the bottom of it). We don't use the menu because making it truly responsive and getting drop-downs to work takes more code than just rolling our own solution. We can't use Sticky because half the time it doesn't work, the rest of the time the "stuck" section just disappears instead of becoming fixed - and the documented example code hasn't worked in nearly a month. These are all issues logged in Github (with a consistent 170 to 200 issues at all times, and 20+ pull requests) by various people. It's been 3 weeks since 6.1.2 and we still can't use some of the documentation - it's just plain wrong.

As much as I'd like to wait around another 6 months to see these fixed (and hopefully not have to work around a bunch of others), we're going to bid a fond farewell to Foundation and find something more reliable.

It's been fun. We'll be back to check out F7, and I personally hope to see better testing (both regression and usability) and better documentation. With these in place, I expect the developer feedback will be more positive and we'll see more communication from the Zurb developers after release.

Thanks for the years, and I hope these issues are not just in our heads.

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I used to love Foundation. It made all the things (well, most of them) nice and easy with a relative minimum of class name overhead. My designers would have their way with things and I never worried about whether or not those things would be troublesome. I knew I could fill in the few places Foundation wouldn't go.

I've been trying to love F6, I really have. We've now done 4 projects with it, and the only one that didn't show how full of bugs F6 is was the one where the flex grid, buttons, and alerts were literally the only components we used.

I was excited about the blog posts leading up to the release. I liked the idea of the "full load" being half the size of F5 and twice as fast.

Now it's been 2 months and we're on v6.1.2 (a full point-release away from the initial release). The documentation is still full of errors. The framework components are still full of bugs. We can't use Reveal because half the time it appears off screen (or near the bottom of it). We don't use the menu because making it truly responsive and getting drop-downs to work takes more code than just rolling our own solution. We can't use Sticky because half the time it doesn't work, the rest of the time the "stuck" section just disappears instead of becoming fixed - and the documented example code hasn't worked in nearly a month. These are all issues logged in Github (with a consistent 170 to 200 issues at all times, and 20+ pull requests) by various people. It's been 3 weeks since 6.1.2 and we still can't use some of the documentation - it's just plain wrong.

As much as I'd like to wait around another 6 months to see these fixed (and hopefully not have to work around a bunch of others), we're going to bid a fond farewell to Foundation and find something more reliable.

It's been fun. We'll be back to check out F7, and I personally hope to see better testing (both regression and usability) and better documentation. With these in place, I expect the developer feedback will be more positive and we'll see more communication from the Zurb developers after release.

Thanks for the years, and I hope these issues are not just in our heads.

E. Smythe over 3 years ago

I hope these issues are not just in our heads.

They are not. I'm not going to go through my specific examples, what are different than yours, but I'm not happy and considering the same path you've taken.

E. Smythe over 3 years ago

I'm not going to go through my specific examples

Maybe I'll give just one. I make extensive use of dropdown panes (NOT dropdown menu) : http://foundation.zurb.com/sites/docs/dropdown.html inside accordions: http://foundation.zurb.com/sites/docs/accordion.html

The panes display fine in 6.0-6.0.6. As soon as I upgrade to 6.1.x -- any version -- the panes display GIANT WIDTH AND GIANT FONTSIZE on everything but Firefox desktop...mobile, tablet, desktop Chrome, etc (Well I didn't test with every possible platform and browser, but enough to know there's a bug).

No changes to my codebase. At all.

I have other examples, too.

At first I was afraid to upgrade. Now I'm at the point that I won't upgrade. I don't have the time or resources to regression test everything because of upgrading Foundation.

Russel Porosky over 3 years ago

Hehe, there's a patch I saw somewhere that changed a font size from "16rem" to "1rem" in the code :)

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

@Russel Porosky It sucks to hear that - totally get what you're saying.

I said this before is previous post:

This is a good discussion around the hiccups concerning a HUGE release like this. Foundation 6 is a big time value add to workflows and features and there are a lot of moving pieces. The criticism is appreciated as much as the kudos because we know people are invested in the work we do.

I still believe it. One thing I'm excited about is the roadmap that Foundation is following as well as the huge momentum created by this release.

Last month, there were twice as many PR's merged than submitted and lots more issues closed than remain were opened and not fixed. https://github.com/zurb/foundation-sites/pulse/monthly

There are still a few larger issues that we're addressing with the patch coming https://github.com/zurb/foundation-sites/pull/8089 and will continue knocking down issues.

We are a small team and working with our awesome community to keep making the code more solid is key to growing this. The way people can help is to open issues, and if you can submit Pull Requests.

You can be part of this moving forward by talking specifically about the use cases you have and suggesting the fixes you think would help the most people.

Dennis over 3 years ago

A totally agree with all of you. Foundation 6 has a lot of bugs but the Zurb team is working hard to fix those issues and creating a great framework which can be used in every part of the world! I am very gratefull for that.

However.... Most of my submitted issues at Github are just ignored. Simply no reply's or ZurbChris saying that it is not a bug while it is as it used to be working in Foundation 5.

Russel Porosky over 3 years ago

@Rafi Benkual I appreciate this post being un-deleted and you taking the time to reply to my concerns!

I don't really disagree with any point you've made above, and I agree that the culture and community are both pretty stellar.

Unfortunately, the main issue I perceive (and I should have been more clear about this in my original post) is the lack of consistency between releases. Major features are breaking between releases; documentation is breaking (which is weird) between releases; even the example code won't work in a few cases (I'm looking at you, Sticky).

These aren't problems associated with team size, but with attention to detail. I have 3 out of 4 sites that can't use Reveal because the modal appears either off-screen or at the bottom, and I don't know why the 4th site works properly.

Believe me, I have always appreciated the 1000-hour head start that Foundation gives on a project, and F4 and F5 were good at their jobs. I simply cannot justify wasting time writing work-arounds to bugs in F6 that should have blocked release, all the while knowing that the next release will potentially fix some of the features but break other ones.

Ultimately, I will be moving to more purpose-built libraries instead of all-in-ones, like I noted. There is a great sticky polyfill I've found that works well. There is a PostCSS based flex grid I can drop in which will let me get rid of SASS and remove a couple of steps from our build/deploy process (we already use PostCSS for everything except Foundation anyways). There's a fantastic library that will make iframes responsive without requiring the extra wrapper element. I won't even need jQuery for most of these (which is a good thing, I believe).

So again, thank you for taking the time to respond.

E. Smythe over 3 years ago

@Rafi Benkual, what do you say about the critique that new releases are fixing bugs while introducing new ones? i.e., two steps forward, one step back? (or maybe even two steps back, one step forward...depending on the release in question)

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

@E. Smythe Good question! We don't want that to happen. So we introduced a new way to make point releases and the 6.3 will be focussed on unit testing.

For 6.2, Feb 28th, we are doing RC's of each point release -
https://github.com/zurb/foundation-sites/releases/tag/v6.2.0-rc.1

This will get more eyes and testers on each release to fully test features.

@Russel Porosky This RC addresses some of the issue you mentioned above.

Dennis over 3 years ago

Pity to see none of the addressed issues by me is fixed in the rc 6.2. Like the:
- Drilldown: On small screens the inline width of the drilldown should be changed to 100%.
- Offcanvas is scrolled to top on each click by large content while forceTop is set the false.
- The arrows of the tooltip (left and right) is corrupt sometimes.
- Slider steps aren't implemented while I need this one very badly.
- The title of the Off-canvas is overlapping the close button on medium and small screens.
- The drilldown-button is still buggy as the position is misaliged all over the screen.
- The accordion accepts only div's instead of div's and ul's.

And a few others. All those issues are reported on GitHub with a codepen and/or screenshot. So far nothing happended to it.

I would be happy to invite a Zurb member like Rafi to my private Foundation website. It is still private because I am working very hard on it and can't make it public with all those bugs. Maybe this member of Zurb could investigate some bugs on my website and decide if the bug is serious to be fixed in 6.2? Would be great.

Vladimir over 3 years ago

When I started using Foundation I've noticed section on the site called Premium support and after some time spent using Foundation it was clear to me why that section exists. Don't get me wrong, I don't have any problems with that as long as I am able to make what I need, a simple web page, using just manuals and tutorial articles. And F5 had good manual and lots of tutorials, good ones. Expectations for F6 were high, because team advertised it as a quantum leap forward, smaller footstep, easier to learn... But all in all, we got half finished product, something which had to be still in beta version. I am almost finished with a example project I did with F6 and I am afraid of "letting it in the wild". I have problems with menus, with responsive navigation mainly, I have to tweak solutions just to see that it breaks apart on mobile or on desktop. @Rafi Benkual spent lots of time explaining everyone and helping instead of making one article per problem, and there are many different posts that asks the same question. Yes I know that I have to pay if I have specific problem and difficult project, but I am still not able to finish the simplest of ones.
So I must agree with @Russel Porosky but unlike him I will wait end of february and v6.2 to see what changes it brings. If they are cosmetics only, I will have to find another solution because I can not afford to wait for v6.5 for example since non of my clients want to do that.
And @Rafi Benkual this kind of releases just bring bad reviews and deflects people from this fine (or maybe which was fine) product.

Russel Porosky over 3 years ago

@Mister J Foundation (and Bootstrap) are front-end frameworks, not back-end. I would say that as far as back-end coding goes, there is absolutely no difference at all between Foundation and Bootstrap.

Vladimir over 3 years ago

I disagree with @Mister J about back-end stuff. I use Laravel for back-end and connecting it with Foundation is a piece of cake (as BootStrap also). I just need CSS framework that works, that is well documented, that works on mobile/tablet/desktop in its basic. When I think better, I want Foundation 6 to work as good as Foundation 5 did, and I think I am not the only one who wants that.

Jeremy Englert over 3 years ago

Foundation 6 was a fairly huge makeover with the goal of creating a modular, lightweight framework that was easy to extend/adjust. While the changes may look/feel minor in a side-by-side comparison to Foundation 5 - that couldn't be much further from the truth.

Foundation 6 is infinitely times easier to extend than Foundation 5 giving developers that power to build almost anything we desire, but with great power comes great responsibility. Some of the items in Foundation 6 will be a bit "harder" to use (which I feel is the source of many of the "issues"), but once mastered, they become really fun to extend and build upon. The menu/topbar is a prime example of this.

With that being said, there are still plenty of bugs that ZURB and the community continue to work on everyday. One of the great benefits of ZURB is that almost all of the components work completely independent of eachother. So if you're having an issue with a specific component, you can simply axe it and roll your own solution without breaking the rest of the framework.

FYI - The Bootstrap GitHub repo has 300+ issues.

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

@Vladimir and @Russel Porosky Sounds like the responsive menu component is the most common theme. We started a thread here to discuss it in more detail: http://foundation.zurb.com/forum/posts/38403-

We'd love to hear more about how you're using the new menu in F6 and your experience with it.

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

@Dennis Regarding the accordion markup, this was patched and is working in the current version 6.1.2. https://github.com/zurb/foundation-sites/issues/8013

Dennis over 3 years ago

Thanks for the reply Rafi. Awesome that this issue is fixed but what about the others?

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

Hey Guys! Awesome comments here - it's good to get a sense of how these things are being used.

Some quick take-ways from reading all the comments:
- Some of the plugins are buggy and need work
- A migration guide of any sort would help alleviate confusion
- Better visual/regression testing in place
- More docs examples, tutorials, and Building Blocks

Next Steps:
- We're focussing fixes on the Reveal Modal and the Menu system since they are the most used by you all
- A Migration Guide is in the works, and we'll have a link to it in the docs early next week.
- We created a small set of visual/regression tests for the menu component. This will be expanded to Reveal Modals and other components as well.
- We have a slew of Foundation lessons planned as well as building blocks. We are also working with community members like James Stone to produce more tutorial content.

Rafi Benkual over 3 years ago

@Russel Porosky Pointed out some issues with the Reveal Modal positioning. We started a thread here to discuss it in more detail: http://foundation.zurb.com/forum/posts/38459-f6-reveal-modal-suggestions

We'd love to hear more about how you're using the new Reveal modal and your experience with it.

toto almost 3 years ago

Is there any relationship to the sudden not working of Foundation 6 and the ramping up of PLZ Halp?
I like to make contributions or refer folks to learning it. I do not ask for help ever and pretty much figure things out on my own or search for the correct answer. 

I am just concerned that I have build a lot of websites and upgrading them to Foundation 6 looks like it will be a long job, instead of a quick update and a couple rounds in the css etc....

I really dont see myself paying 500 for the PLZ Halp, for something I can figure out...though now it looks like you kinda HAVE to because you cannot afford to pull your hair out and then get hair transplants later.

I am a little confused with the new business model and prefer to make good contributions to something that works and not pay 500 bucks to fix something that has worked for years and then suddenly stops working.

I am glad I did not get this all messed up in a CMS system, then I would be bald.Even worse...I am a woman. : )

Vladimir almost 3 years ago

Well as I see, you have 2 choices, pay and get things done or don't pay and instead pay for hair transplant.

1) if there were not a laracast forum I will totally abandon Foundation since their SCSS solution and folder layout is so damn hard to integrate into Laravel Elixir. If you compare that to Bootstrap folder layout your hair will fall by itself.

2) no one is reading your/mine complaints :) I was ranting about this forum search option for so long I gave up, because no one from Zurb is reading this anyway

3) I sacrificed so much of my time in writing manuals on how to integrate Foundation SCSS files into Laravel (one of the most talked about and soon to be the No1 framework written in PHP) and no one from Zurb gave 5min time to use those instruction and copy/paste into their article and use it as official manual for Foundation - Laravel integration. So now with new Laravel install we all have one (1) command to make complete auth back-end with, you guess right, Bootstrap integration

4) no one will read this so why do I loose my time writing it anyway???